Does human life begin at conception?

Openmind said:
By the way. . .you believe what you wish about me. . . . but I KNOW in my heart that I am at least as "pro-life" as God! Obviously, the biggest loss of "life" among the unborn is due to GOD's will. . .through miscarriages.

What tells you that contraception and even abortions are not part of God's plan?
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Scripture, or are you goijng to go down the road of Grumpy, and Dog, and ignore the word of God?

Exodus 21: 22=25

“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Throughout Christian history abortion has been regarded as murder, as was the use of abortificants, and contraceptives. Tertullian in Apology 9.4 wrote, "It does not matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to the birth. In both instances, destruction is murder". Basil the Great in Canons 188 .2affirmed, "Those who give abortifacients for the destruction of a child conceived in the womb are murderers themselves, along with those receiving the poisons". Jerome called abortion “the murder of an unborn child”. Augustine warned against the terrible crime of “the murder of an unborn child”. Origen, Cyprian, and Chrysotom were among the many other prominent theologians and church leaders who condemned abortion as the killing of children.

And now you want to say God is guilty of murder? But how do you as a "pro life" adherent support the murder of the unborn, yet oppose the execution of a rapist, a pedophile, a murderer, which God Himself supported?
 
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Old_Trapper70 said:
Scripture, or are you goijng to go down the road of Grumpy, and Dog, and ignore the word of God?

Exodus 21: 22=25

“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Throughout Christian history abortion has been regarded as murder, as was the use of abortificants, and contraceptives. Tertullian in Apology 9.4 wrote, "It does not matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to the birth. In both instances, destruction is murder". Basil the Great in Canons 188 .2affirmed, "Those who give abortifacients for the destruction of a child conceived in the womb are murderers themselves, along with those receiving the poisons". Jerome called abortion “the murder of an unborn child”. Augustine warned against the terrible crime of “the murder of an unborn child”. Origen, Cyprian, and Chrysotom were among the many other prominent theologians and church leaders who condemned abortion as the killing of children.

And now you want to say God is guilty of murder? But how do you as a "pro life" adherent support the murder of the unborn, yet oppose the execution of a rapist, a pedophile, a murderer, which God Himself supported?
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I do not believe scriptures are the direct word of God. I believe scriptures' value is in the historical story telling of a people and their search for a God that would meet their need. Scripture are merely the representation of men's desire for power and for control over their surroundings, including control over women.

And, if you believe in the literal words of the scriptures, how can you reconcile throwing a woman whom you had a child with into the desert with that child, simply because your wife suddenly becomes pregnant? Talk about "pro-life!"

So. . .Don't worry about me. My faith is strong, my conscience guides me and I am in peace with myself and my beliefs. I do not need a third party (whether it is a often translated ORAL history of what ancient men THOUGHT was the will of God, or today's guidance from money grabbing "men of Gods", or even that of a religious leader whom I very much admire and trust: Pope Francis. ..who by the way is getting every closer to supporting contraception!)

I am not a judge. I know God is the ultimate judge, and HE/SHE/IT has given each one of us freewill. I use mine to believe that the life of a child is always important, but I do not believe that a 3 days, or 3 weeks zygote or fetus is more important than a woman's God given right to choose her destiny.

I am certain you are a good person. I am also certain that, since I do not agree with your "scriptures" or the right of women to choose you believe I am evil. . .
But what matters is that I KNOW in my conscience, through my direct "communication" with my God (for a lack of better word), that my position does not take away the care/love God has for me.
 
Openmind said:
I do not believe scriptures are the direct word of God. I believe scriptures' value is in the historical story telling of a people and their search for a God that would meet their need. Scripture are merely the representation of men's desire for power and for control over their surroundings, including control over women.
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Spoken like the true feminist.

I am not a judge. I know God is the ultimate judge, and HE/SHE/IT has given each one of us freewill. I use mine to believe that the life of a child is always important, but I do not believe that a 3 days, or 3 weeks zygote or fetus is more important than a woman's God given right to choose her destiny.
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And you don't believe, according to your words, that one has to take responsibility for their own actions. You seem to feel that if the woman drops her panties for a few moments of pleasure then any thing that results from that act is to be discarded like a cheap suit, and then she can get ready for her next fling in the sheets. Of course, we used to have a name for that type of woman, however, it seems that the morality of the likes of Trump is more prevalent in this modern world.

I am certain you are a good person. I am also certain that, since I do not agree with your "scriptures" or the right of women to choose you believe I am evil. . .
But what matters is that I KNOW in my conscience, through my direct "communication" with my God (for a lack of better word), that my position does not take away the care/love God has for me.
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That is the same argument Grumpy, and Dog, and many so-called "christians" used to justify their vote for a lying, adulterous, coward. Gods word means nothing, how I "feel" is all that matters. God loves all mankind, however, that does not mean one will receive His reward, or enter the Kingdom of God.
 
Effective birth control can reduce unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions, by 95% more or less.
Outlawing abortion has not been shown to reduce abortions even 1%.

So, if you're truly anti abortion, which course would you prefer: Outlawing the practice, or providing effective sex education and easy access to effective birth control?

On the other hand, if you're an authoritarian, outlawing something is the way to go. It's worked so well for drug abuse, after all. It hasn't reduced drug dependency, but it makes the authoritarian feel good moralizing about people who are addicted, or who have abortions. and if it isn't working, just increase the punishment for breaking the law.
 
PLC1 said:
Effective birth control can reduce unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions, by 95% more or less.
Outlawing abortion has not been shown to reduce abortions even 1%.

So, if you're truly anti abortion, which course would you prefer: Outlawing the practice, or providing effective sex education and easy access to effective birth control?

On the other hand, if you're an authoritarian, outlawing something is the way to go. It's worked so well for drug abuse, after all. It hasn't reduced drug dependency, but it makes the authoritarian feel good moralizing about people who are addicted, or who have abortions. and if it isn't working, just increase the punishment for breaking the law.
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Laws punishing you if you murder someone don't seem to prevent it happening either but not so sure it's a good idea to toss them.
They've been teaching sex ed for decades now and contraception is readily available in any drug store or convenience store not working so well.

Maybe we should try emphasising the personal responsibility is importent and necessary instead of nothing being your fault. All we do us enable bad behavior.
 
Old_Trapper70 said:
Spoken like the true feminist.



And you don't believe, according to your words, that one has to take responsibility for their own actions. You seem to feel that if the woman drops her panties for a few moments of pleasure then any thing that results from that act is to be discarded like a cheap suit, and then she can get ready for her next fling in the sheets. Of course, we used to have a name for that type of woman, however, it seems that the morality of the likes of Trump is more prevalent in this modern world.



That is the same argument Grumpy, and Dog, and many so-called "christians" used to justify their vote for a lying, adulterous, coward. Gods word means nothing, how I "feel" is all that matters. God loves all mankind, however, that does not mean one will receive His reward, or enter the Kingdom of God.
Click to expand...


And you are speaking as a true male chauvinist bigot.
Amazing that you don't seem to even start to consider that, more often than not, it is the MAN who believes he can just shoot a fast one and walk away without any consequence!

By the way, most women who just want to have casual sex DO know and use contraception. Abortion is more often the results of unwanted birth among very young girls who don't know much better, and have been using "abstinence" with good intent. . .until the day abstinence is forgotten in the "heat of the moment" or she is being raped or taken advantage off by a man, or poor women who already have their hands full with several children, no money to raise all of them, or has been the victim of an abusive husband, or a husband who has left her with the children.

And. . .how YOU feel doesn't matter to me, no more than how I feel matters to you. And I do not believe in heaven anymore than I believe in hell.

So. . .although I respect your right to feel and express your opinion and beliefs on this, you are wasting your time trying to either convince me, brow beat me, or insult me.
 
Recall a study showing most abortions were not the first one for the "mother".
The problem is hedonism and an entitlement society that supports it.
Are some guys pigs ? Of course. But it ain't all them.
 
PLC1 said:
Effective birth control can reduce unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions, by 95% more or less.
Outlawing abortion has not been shown to reduce abortions even 1%.

So, if you're truly anti abortion, which course would you prefer: Outlawing the practice, or providing effective sex education and easy access to effective birth control?
Click to expand...

How about both? Less then 1% of abortions are for medical reasons, the rest are for the pure convenience of immoral actions by men/women.

On the other hand, if you're an authoritarian, outlawing something is the way to go. It's worked so well for drug abuse, after all. It hasn't reduced drug dependency, but it makes the authoritarian feel good moralizing about people who are addicted, or who have abortions. and if it isn't working, just increase the punishment for breaking the law.
Click to expand...

Before drugs it was alcohol abuse so there will always be something in the nature of man that drives them to be self abusers. Even today with the death rate of opiods we see no end to the problem. However, it is a sign of the lack of moral character, and the problems such a lack creates. If one has no regard for the life of the unborn why would one expect them to have any regard for the living, or even themselves? Of course, one can take the course you have chosen and say it is bad to be the "authoritarian" thereby giving one the excuse of ignoring the death created by such an attitude, and thus making oneself feel good that they are not judgemental, or have any moral standards.
 
Openmind said:
And you are speaking as a true male chauvinist bigot.
Amazing that you don't seem to even start to consider that, more often than not, it is the MAN who believes he can just shoot a fast one and walk away without any consequence!
Click to expand...

It is still the woman who has to lower her panties, spread her legs, and say yes. And it is also the woman who thinks she can dress like a whore, and then condemn the man for thinking she is one.

In this case, women such as yourself have made sure the man has no role in the abortion decision, and then you want to act as if he doesn't care..

And. . .how YOU feel doesn't matter to me, no more than how I feel matters to you. And I do not believe in heaven anymore than I believe in hell.

So. . .although I respect your right to feel and express your opinion and beliefs on this, you are wasting your time trying to either convince me, brow beat me, or insult me.
Click to expand...

You are obviously the victim of abuse with serious unresolved issues.
 
Old_Trapper70 said:
It is still the woman who has to lower her panties, spread her legs, and say yes. And it is also the woman who thinks she can dress like a whore, and then condemn the man for thinking she is one.

In this case, women such as yourself have made sure the man has no role in the abortion decision, and then you want to act as if he doesn't care..



You are obviously the victim of abuse with serious unresolved issues.
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If your comments were not so sad, I would find them funny!

Sorry, but your view on gender role is as old as the scriptures! I actually feel sorry for you, because it is clear that you never had a satisfying, equal relationship with a woman, not in bed, and no oer place.

Take care. Life must be so sad with the feelings you harbor! No wonder you need to turn to hyper-religiosity to have an excuse for your gender shortcomings!
 
Openmind said:
If your comments were not so sad, I would find them funny!

Sorry, but your view on gender role is as old as the scriptures! I actually feel sorry for you, because it is clear that you never had a satisfying, equal relationship with a woman, not in bed, and no oer place.

Take care. Life must be so sad with the feelings you harbor! No wonder you need to turn to hyper-religiosity to have an excuse for your gender shortcomings!
Click to expand...


What is sad is that a spinster like yourself has to resort to innuendo instead of relying on facts to support your asinine beliefs. Unfortunately your position leaves you no moral ground on which to condemn others for adultery, lying, stealing, murder, or any transgression of moral law since you cannot defend the life of an unborn child. Nor can you make any rational defense of abortion save for the "woman has control over her own body", well, unless it has to do with having sex purely for the pleasure of it, and then killing the resultant life created.

However, like Grumpy, and Dog, with their support of Trump you quite clearly demonstrate the lack of moral values that has infected this country. You would whine about the treatment of women by the Taliban, yet support the destruction of the babe that God says He created.

"Hyper-religiosity"? Not hardly. If such were the s=case I would be calling for your death. However, in the final end of things God will take care of that.

http://www.lifenews.com/2015/01/08/...tbooks-prove-human-life-begins-at-conception/

http://naapc.org/why-life-begins-at-conception/

"A United States Senate Judiciary Subcommittee invited experts to testify on the question of when life begins. All of the quotes from the following experts come directly from the official government record of their testimony.1

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated:

“I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception…. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life….

I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”
 
Yes, it is her body. And this does not count the women who have died from a "legal abortion":

http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Jan/6/does-abortion-harm-womans-physical-and-mental-heal/

Countless women who have been damaged by abortions have said, “I had no idea this could happen; no one warned me about the risks.”

Common Complications

In her testimony before a Senate subcommittee in 2004, Dr. Elizabeth Shadigan testified that “abortion increases rates of breast cancer, placenta previa, pre-term births, and maternal suicide.... Statistically, all types of deaths are higher with women who have had induced abortions.”*

At least forty-nine studies have demonstrated a statistically significant increase in premature births or low birth weight risk in women with prior induced abortions. “Low birth weight and premature birth are the most important risk factors for infant mortality or later disabilities as well as for lower cognitive abilities and greater behavioral problems.”*

Malformations of later children are increased by abortion.* The frequency of early death for infants born after their mothers have had abortions is between two and four times the normal rate.* Induced abortion appears to be responsible for thousands of cases of cerebral palsy in North America.*

Ectopic pregnancies occur when gestation takes place outside the uterus, commonly in a fallopian tube. Such pregnancies are responsible for 12 percent of all pregnancy-related maternal deaths.* The US Department of Health and Human Services conducted a twenty-year study on ectopic pregnancy rates, which indicated an increase in ectopic pregnancies of more than 500 percent since abortion was legalized.*

Studies show that the risk of an ectopic pregnancy is twice as high for women who have had one abortion, and up to four times as high for women with two or more previous abortions.* Of those who have an ectopic pregnancy, 40 percent become infertile, and the odds of having another ectopic pregnancy are one in three. Remarkably, “only 33% of women with ectopic pregnancy will have a subsequent live birth.”*

The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reports, “pregnancy related complications, such as ectopic pregnancy…still affect 2,000 women each day.”*

Pelvic Inflammatory Disease (PID) is an infection that leads to fever and infertility. Researchers state, “Pelvic infection is a common and serious complication of induced abortion and has been reported in up to 30% of all cases.”* A study of women having first-trimester abortions demonstrated that “women with postabortal pelvic inflammatory disease had significantly higher rates of…spontaneous abortion (but it was God that created abortions, right? Not the actions of man), secondary infertility, dyspareunia, and chronic pelvic pain.”*
 
Old_Trapper70 said:
What is sad is that a spinster like yourself has to resort to innuendo instead of relying on facts to support your asinine beliefs.

"A spinster like me????"

Are you completely out of your mind? Where do you get that?
I was married at the age of 21, I am now 67, and I am still married to the same man! We have two children, a boy, who is our birth son, and a daughter whom we adopted from Korea at the age of 6. We have 4 grand children, all boys, age 18, 14, 12, and 10!

You are so totally off your rockers!

You either never had a satisfying, long term relationship with a woman, or you had a relationship that was very painful to you and you can't get over it!

No one who has had a positive relationship with a woman can hate women that much. . . Unless they are mentally unstable!
Click to expand...
 
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Openmind said:
"A spinster like me????"

Are you completely out of your mind? Where do you get that?
Click to expand...

Same place you got this from hypocrite:

"I actually feel sorry for you, because it is clear that you never had a satisfying, equal relationship with a woman, not in bed, and no oer place."

Now, tell us how abortions are for the "health of the mother".
 

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