Students don't take school seriously...

[zerorelations]

Many students don't take school seriously anymore.

Most students see education as a chore and a hassle, even though they should be considering it a privilege.

What is happening to our country! What kind of mindset do we have?

[9sublime]

Probably what the older generation said about the middle aged people of today.

[vyo476]

Regardless of what past generations have had to say, I'm with hereyago. There are a number of reasons for this trend, though, and having seen it day in and day out for four years of public high school I had a long, long time to wonder why my classmates were such dingbats.

Reason 1: A lot of people ask themselves, "How is this going to help me in my life?" and when they can't answer that they rebel against the school. That question isn't about the diploma - that has undeniable use - but about the classes themselves. It's hard to focus on the goal when you're in a whole bunch of classes you dislike and can't understand the purpose of.

Reason 2: Kids don't like to be forced to do anything. They're forced to go to school, on average for seven hours a day (that's what it was in my high school anyway). Seven hours is a long, long time and it feels a lot longer when you're being forced to do something.

Reason 3: Some kids just don't get it. I mean that literally, they just don't understand the subject matter and for one reason or another aren't receiving the care they require. In that situation school becomes torturous; every day going to to the same place and failing in the same way in front of the same people. Sound like your idea of a good time? How about useful?

Reason 4: And there's the stratification. Cliques, clubs, and gangs rule our high schools, even in places where there is no violence. There's a very set and ordered social hierarchy at most public high schools and it is stifling to put up with. It was one of the chief reasons my own high school experience was poor. At some point, if you're halfway intelligent, the idea of spending another minute around a group of people who idolize the girl amongst them who looks the most like Britney Spears is rather akin to rolling in a pit sprinkled with broken glass and salt.

So there you have it. That's what's going on in high schools today and those are the primary reasons kids don't want to go. As for assuaging these situations, well, there are a number of alternatives - none of which has ever worked very well.

[RadicalActor]

Vyo,

do you have any suggestions that could help kids value education more?

I think we need to go back to our traditional ways of beating kids' asses if they don't do their work. We're being way too lenient to the kids these days. They're taking the rights they have right now for granted. They don't know how much our ancestors had to fight for such rights...

[vyo476]

I think "beating their asses" would just exacerbate the problem. For one thing, I think all limitations on cultural expression should be tossed from high schools, staring with guidelines for proper language. I think we all know by the time we're 14 that people swear, and that people swear a lot. Implementing policies that encourage individual expression is a good idea and diversifying the types of courses taught, too - branching out from the model of the three "R's" to include more programs for trade and the arts - give kids more choices in high school and they'll feel a little more free. Require all teachers to have attained a Master's Degree in education which includes at least one course in child psychology. Abolish homework - many kids who are planning on entering the workforce out of high school look at their parents, whose 9-5 jobs don't give them extra work to complete outside of 9-5, and cry fowl at the amount of work they are expected to do when not at school.

Most important - don't try too hard to end the stratification I was talking about. For many teenagers their social standing is an open sore and trying to "help" them too much would be akin to pouring salt on it. Encouraging the socially disenfranchised to participate in activities that cater to their particular interests and abilities not only makes them more productive but introduces them to a caste of high school students who are like them, effectively giving them a higher level in the stratification of the school.

[TheWaffle]

Honestly I think the issue comes from poor school administration. They often tend to focus on disciplining minor infringements and they often favor harsh discipline over trust.

The problem with high schools is that it comes at a rebellious stage in the human life. And putting kids in a regimented system with buzzers to tell them when to go to the next class is just plain dehumanizing. Administrators get caught up with punishing the "bad seeds" to the point where they can do no right. The fact that you can't even walk in the hallway without getting hassled is reason enough to hate the school.

It's not hard to understand why kids hate school when you start adding up all of these factors. Also the little things (atleast at my school): dysfunctional air conditioning and heating, hall passes, chalk dust in the air, classrooms devoid of windows, boring subjects. And somewhere along the way teachers thought up that detention was a good way of preventing bad behavior.

I went to a private school in middle school that had a very relaxed college campus atmosphere. Classes were 45 minutes and teachers were understanding of students being late and there was no god-forsaken buzzer. When I went to a public high school many things shocked me. The complete lack of respect for the students and a complete lack of trust between staff and students. It didn't help that you were quite literally not allowed to leave the single building for all 7 hours of the day. Then there's the crappy food.

Immediately after my graduation year the school had the ceiling tiles ripped out to remove the asbestos from the ceilings, then the school said they couldn't afford to put the tiles back in. Now every classroom looks like Costco with ducts and wires hanging down. Not to mention that every pencil tapping on every desk reverberates everywhere.

It's unfortunate but so many of our schools are just awful places to be. Bad facilities combined with overburdening administrations create disinterested students.

[9sublime]

At my school they gave bikes to the bad kids when they were good and nothing to the good kids when they were good all the time so. And seriously, thats pretty much how straighfoward it was. In the end, a lot of the good kids gave up inside and outside of lessons and started messing around.

[TheWaffle]

At my school they gave bikes to the bad kids when they were good and nothing to the good kids when they were good all the time so. And seriously, thats pretty much how straighfoward it was. In the end, a lot of the good kids gave up inside and outside of lessons and started messing around.

What the hell kind of school did you go to?

[r0beph]

I agree with vyo and waffle in this.
my points;


I am 100% for uniforms. I just think it's less of a hassle. No worrying about do you look good today, do you have enough money for the latest prada panties or whatever

Homework is not a problem directly, but teachers who pile it on like crazy are, there should be a limitation to the homework amount a teacher can force upon someone.

The overzealous policing of schools damages children greatly in my opinion. Eg. http://www.thestar.com/News/article/208693 what a waste of resources that principle is, hire someone who cares for education not policing.

One local highschool here has several ultra-restrictive rules/actions. At graduation if a student throws their hat, they don't get their diploma (they hand out blank sheets), they receive their diploma after something like 80 hours of community service. Normally students had a break between their blocks that was 15 minutes. this was removed and they're forced to remain in class beyond the break bell and go at the 3 minute warning. Sorry if you needed a bathroom break. They removed this because one night someone TP'd the school, break is gone until someone admits it. Several students admitted to it in an attempt to get breaks back, but weren't believed so it remains in effect. I'm sure there are tons of other strange police measures instituted by free reigning principles who have no checks.

[zerorelations]

I think we need to show the children that education is a privilege...

More discipline doesn't mean children will take education seriously

[Dude111]

I think 1 thing wrong with school today is TRYING TO KEEP RELIGION OUT OF THE CLASSROOM!

Why should they not wanna teach about God or whatever in school?? (When its a part of thier lives)

I think school would be a BETTER place if there was MORE LOVE AND COMPAASION shown... (Trying to keep religion out is like KEEPING LOVE OUT and w/o love,its NO GOOD (Not a nice place))

[n0spam4me]

Ya,
just think.....

If you do religion the way that the State likes,
You get a big fat juicy Tax Exemption.
and if you do NOT do religion the way that the State likes,
you get NOTHING!

can U dig it?

[VicSmith]

Like you said, kids these days just don't take school seriously. When I was in school, I used to wonder what the purpose of some pointless classes were, and I couldn't think of an answer. I believe that the teachers are the fault of our education problems. The teachers aren't stimulating the students enough, and thus, kids these days just don't possess the desire to learn. Also, teachers have to find a way to link the "pointless" classes to each child's real life. If the teachers can't, drop the course—there's no point in learning something that you won't use in real life, it would be just a waste of time.

Don't take this personally, all you parents out there, but it's also partly the parents' fault. They're the ones who are supposed to be supporting the child nurturing their desire to learn. Luckily, I took my education seriously, had decent teachers and supporting parents. But the same can't be said for every child. We need to do something about the way today's teachers teach our children, and NOW.

[Dude111]

Unfortunately religion is one of the biggest causes of pain mankind has ever experienced.Yes i know,many say it causes MORE HARM THAN GOOD... (Might be why they keep it out)

[VicSmith]

Religion aren't schools' business, and the schools should keep their noses out of it. If the children want to go to church, let their parents take them.

[PLC1]

I graduated from high school in 1960.

We could have had this exact same discussion then, with the exact same reasons why some students don't take school seriously.

I'd be willing to bet we could do it again in another 49 years.

Some things never change.

If you're in school, get as much out of it as you can. You just might not have another chance. Remember, too, that there is no way to predict just what classes you will find "relevant" or useful 10, 20, or 50 years from now.

Probably the most useful single class I took in high school was typing. I didn't know that at the time, of course, but that's how it turned out. There were no computers in those days, therefore no keyboards to use.

Some things are quite predictably useful, such as reading, math, and language, the basics. Civics is another, especially if the class is set up to teach students how to sort fact from fancy and know how the government is supposed to work. If "civics" is a synonym for "indoctrination", then it might not be so useful.

And, looking back on school and work, I have discovered that the former is a lot easier than the latter.

[dahermit]

I think 1 thing wrong with school today is TRYING TO KEEP RELIGION OUT OF THE CLASSROOM!

Why should they not wanna teach about God or whatever in school?? (When its a part of thier lives)

I think school would be a BETTER place if there was MORE LOVE AND COMPAASION shown... (Trying to keep religion out is like KEEPING LOVE OUT and w/o love,its NO GOOD (Not a nice place))
I agree...schools should teach about god. The goddess of the thuggee. She is all powerful. Praise Kali!.....or isn't that the "God" you were talking about?
Well then, who gets to decide which god or gods, they should teach about?

[PLC1]

I agree...schools should teach about god. The goddess of the thuggee. She is all powerful. Praise Kali!.....or isn't that the "God" you were talking about?
Well then, who gets to decide which god or gods, they should teach about?

There is only one god, and he is Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet. Let's put that on the wall of every classroom in the country, what do you say?

[Mr.Dysfunctional]

The problem is solved actually fairly easy.
Well I say easy as in the concept...

Parents are literally the number 1 cause for poor student grades during K-12.. period. Weather your prinicple has a hard-on for correcting you in the hall or your teachers over0load you with work.. its been the same for decades going on. The real differnce between those who succeed and those who do not are the up-bringing from their parents.

If parents would stop treating school as a teenager "day care" and actively engaged in their childrens lives to help teach them the fundamental reasoning for school, short-cuts and do's and don't.. the system would operate ALOT smoother.

Try telling a PHD Professor your don't believe in homework or that it curbs your creativity HAHAH!!! The fact is that homework is designed to force students to critcally think about subjects on their own as well keep concepts fresh in their mind. **sigh**

Honestly most school administraters actually lack huge amounts of power they once wielded over students. Thank that to firivlous lawsuits via parents looking to make a buck (( affirmative action ring a bell??!?! )) The simple truth is administraters should be completely allowed to ban any students who distract entire class-rooms consitently.

As far as removing homework.. LMAO!!! yeah thats certainly perparing your children for college or salary jobs. (( last time i checked.. on salary you never " clock-out" and will find many of those jobs have "required homework" )) No wonder we are raising a generation of socialist , ungreatful heathens who lack respect of history and the generations before them.

[Agnapostate]

Many students don't take school seriously anymore.

Most students see education as a chore and a hassle, even though they should be considering it a privilege.

What is happening to our country! What kind of mindset do we have?

That's not inaccurate. Schooling is largely hierarchical and authoritarian, and students naturally regard it as an unjust imposition. I'd be inclined to agree with them. Schooling is largely divorced from education at present.

[Dante the Marxist]

I myself am currently in school, and I thought that it would be nice for you all to hear it from the child's mouth.

The reasons most children [so far as I know] dislike school is this:

1. The inability to contradict the teacher.

2. That it is called teaching, but you are not learning anything.

3. You are forced to go.

4. That free speech and thought are stifled.

5. That you are encouraged to view the police who come in as heros, even though many of us have had thier lives ruined by these people.

6. The inability to even leave a room without being punished.

7. The general ignorance and blind patriotism of the teachers.

8. Having to listen to old yuppies who think they are indian and black at the same time, and sing endless nature songs to us.

9. The inability to speak the truth.

10. The fact that your parents are punished for what you do.

11. The disgusting political correctness.

12. The fact that there are barriers keeping you in, and teachers who chase you if you try to leave.

And the list goes on...

[Dude111]

I believe the list is endless..

[PLC1]

I myself am currently in school, and I thought that it would be nice for you all to hear it from the child's mouth.

The reasons most children [so far as I know] dislike school is this:

1. The inability to contradict the teacher.

2. That it is called teaching, but you are not learning anything.

3. You are forced to go.

4. That free speech and thought are stifled.

5. That you are encouraged to view the police who come in as heros, even though many of us have had thier lives ruined by these people.

6. The inability to even leave a room without being punished.

7. The general ignorance and blind patriotism of the teachers.

8. Having to listen to old yuppies who think they are indian and black at the same time, and sing endless nature songs to us.

9. The inability to speak the truth.

10. The fact that your parents are punished for what you do.

11. The disgusting political correctness.

12. The fact that there are barriers keeping you in, and teachers who chase you if you try to leave.

And the list goes on...

So, Dante, you're in high school, correct? Most of what you're saying doesn't apply in the university.

But, be patient. Those old folks who are making your life miserable will get a lot smarter the older you get. Count on it.

[Dante the Marxist]

So, Dante, you're in high school, correct? Most of what you're saying doesn't apply in the university.

But, be patient. Those old folks who are making your life miserable will get a lot smarter the older you get. Count on it.
I have noticed them getting dumber as I get older, for example, the security guard calls anyone who cusses a "dirt person".

[dahermit]

I myself am currently in school, and I thought that it would be nice for you all to hear it from the child's mouth.

The reasons most children [so far as I know] dislike school is this:

1. The inability to contradict the teacher.

2. That it is called teaching, but you are not learning anything.

3. You are forced to go.

4. That free speech and thought are stifled.

5. That you are encouraged to view the police who come in as heros, even though many of us have had thier lives ruined by these people.

6. The inability to even leave a room without being punished.

7. The general ignorance and blind patriotism of the teachers.

8. Having to listen to old yuppies who think they are indian and black at the same time, and sing endless nature songs to us.

9. The inability to speak the truth.

10. The fact that your parents are punished for what you do.

11. The disgusting political correctness.

12. The fact that there are barriers keeping you in, and teachers who chase you if you try to leave.

And the list goes on...You are absolutley correct. You are much too smart to waste your time in school. You should leave now and share your superior knowledge with the world. Your brain is too important to waste any more time in a school where the teachers are not smart enough to see how superior you are to them. Business and industry are waiting with wonderful and high paid postitions just for people like you. Adults have nothing to teach you. Both You and your teachers will be much happier; trust me.

[Dante the Marxist]

You are absolutley correct. You are much too smart to waste your time in school. You should leave now and share your superior knowledge with the world. Your brain is too important to waste any more time in a school where the teachers are not smart enough to see how superior you are to them. Business and industry are waiting with wonderful and high paid postitions just for people like you. Adults have nothing to teach you. Both You and your teachers will be much happier; trust me.

When did I say anything that deserved sarcastic remarks? I never said anything about myself, I was just saying how awful that place was.

Or perhaps you think that I do not deserve my civil rights because you automatically think that anyone under 30 drinks, smokes marijuana, become pimps, burn factorys down, deliberalitly crash into people with our unlicensed cars, and whine about not getting toys.

I cannot possibly imagine were you would get the idea that I thought I was smarter than anyone else. You pull all of these ideas straight out of your a$$ because you are biased against a certain group of people and probably want to initiate a genocide against us just because you saw some of us mildly misbehaving.

[dahermit]

I cannot possibly imagine were you would get the idea that I thought I was smarter than anyone else. ...mildly misbehaving.I cannot possibly imagine either. How could I have gotten the idea that you were not one of those well behaved, respectful, wonderful kids that it is a pleasure to have in class. I must have pulled it out of my a$$.

[Synical]

"even though they should be considering it a privilege."

The universal education system is anything but a privilege, it's a failure of a system that is only there to best suit children into a specific job area, I don't see participating in a system that caters to the economy and nothing else as a privilege, I see it as an insult to knoweldge and to blame for the lack of experience with the real world children actually have.

[PLC1]

I have noticed them getting dumber as I get older, for example, the security guard calls anyone who cusses a "dirt person".

That trend will reverse once you get out of school and on your own, trust me.

[dahermit]

"even though they should be considering it a privilege."

The universal education system is anything but a privilege, it's a failure of a system that is only there to best suit children into a specific job area, I don't see participating in a system that caters to the economy and nothing else as a privilege, I see it as an insult to knoweldge and to blame for the lack of experience with the real world children actually have.Can you give specific examples of how the education system suits children in specific job areas? Math is generally used in all jobs and occupations and needed in everyday living. Chemistry likewise imparts a basic knowledge that is requisite to medicine (doctors, nurses, dental hygienists, machinists, cooks, etc.). History, is basic for understanding citizenship responsibilities for all persons regardless of their occupation/profession. English is a requirement for proper written and spoken communication without regard to the occupation. What would you add to school, or what would you want removed from the curriculum? Be specific, and give your rationalization.

[Dante the Marxist]

I cannot possibly imagine either. How could I have gotten the idea that you were not one of those well behaved, respectful, wonderful kids that it is a pleasure to have in class. I must have pulled it out of my a$$.

I am respectful to teachers and, even though I do misbehave, they consider me absolutely charming. I do every peice of homework I get and have only recieved the hatred of one teacher and the security gaurd. If you consider anyone who asks about wether the system they live under works a hoodlum, then nearly everyone on this site is a hoodlum.

[dahermit]

I am respectful to teachers and, even though I do misbehave, they consider me absolutely charming. I do every peice of homework I get and have only recieved the hatred of one teacher and the security gaurd.Most students who are respectful do not "misbehave", or receive the hatred (such a severe word), of even one teacher or security guard. Also, one wonders how many of your teachers would say they consider you "absolutely charming", if they had the opportunity.



If you consider anyone who asks about wether the system they live under works a hoodlum, then nearly everyone on this site is a hoodlum. What does, "works a hoodlum", mean?

[Dante the Marxist]

Most students who are respectful do not "misbehave", or receive the hatred (such a severe word), of even one teacher or security guard. Also, one wonders how many of your teachers would say they consider you "absolutely charming", if they had the opportunity.
Go ask. And the hateful teacher hates me because I said that I did not finish a assignment when he asked me were it was 2 years ago. I said that it didnt exist, so it wasnt anywere. He just started screaming at me and now we argue whenever we see each other.

As for the security guard, he is a hateful fundementalist who thinks I am an "unbaptized limb of satan".


What does, "works a hoodlum", mean?
I obviously said "anyone who questions wether society works". Either your mind is starting to go or you have to make things up because you cannot even argue with a 13 year old...

[dahermit]

Go ask. And the hateful teacher hates me because I said that I did not finish a assignment when he asked me were it was 2 years ago. I said that it didnt exist, so it wasnt anywere. He just started screaming at me and now we argue whenever we see each other.Yes, you are definitely "charming".

As for the security guard, he is a hateful fundementalist who thinks I am an "unbaptized limb of satan".
Did you mean: "...unbaptized lamb of Satan..."?


I obviously said "anyone who questions wether society works". Either your mind is starting to go or you have to make things up because you cannot even argue with a 13 year old... There is no difference between arguing with a 3 year old than there is arguing with a 13 year old.

Did you mean: "anyone who questions whether society works, is considered a hoodlum"? Your lack of writing skills results in posts that are barely decipherable, let alone "obvious".

What are you doing on an adult forum. Would you not be more comfortable on "facebook", or some other site that caters to children? What makes you think that you have anything to say that adults would want to hear?

[Synical]

Ofcourse I can, I should of done so in my last post but I was making it brief as I had to leave the house.

As far as categorizing children in the Universal education system into a Job area, this is slowly built up and the generalization first seen in the early years of the education system slowly begins to narrow down to a specific area of expertise that the child has decided to put their interest into which in turn leads to a Job in that area, work ethic is a strong influence in schools and i'm sure you realise that.

If I were to remove anything from the cirriculum it would be the worth ethic however please don't misunderstand me, I would not remove this because of the current world we live in, the way we live is exactly why the education system is failing, because of the fact that the economy and money makes the world go round the education system HAS to cater to this, it has no choice on the matter. This leads me to the economy, for a long time I have believed that the likes of a Resource Based Economy would be a much more efficient economy than the likes of the Monetary System governing it, there is many more ways to form a solution to take work ethic out of schools but that's what I believe to be the solution.

There is much more I don't agree with when it comes to the Universal Education System so if you'd like me to give you a few more reasons, just ask ;p

[dahermit]

As far as categorizing children in the Universal education system into a Job area, this is slowly built up and the generalization first seen in the early years of the education system slowly begins to narrow down to a specific area of expertise that the child has decided to put their interest into which in turn leads to a Job in that area, work ethic is a strong influence in schools and i'm sure you realise that. In some European education systems, from what I have been told by Europeans and exchange students, students are channeled into specific areas of employment. However, in the school in which I taught, there was no such selecting an area of specialization that was initiated by the school system. Some choose to take industrial arts classes, some take college prep classes. It was however, their own choice.

Can you give a specific example of how the American system (or the school system you are familiar with), where the system narrows the students choices down to a specific area?

If I were to remove anything from the curriculum it would be the worth ethic however please don't misunderstand me, I would not remove this because of the current world we live in, the way we live is exactly why the education system is failing, because of the fact that the economy and money makes the world go round the education system HAS to cater to this, it has no choice on the matter. This leads me to the economy, for a long time I have believed that the likes of a Resource Based Economy would be a much more efficient economy than the likes of the Monetary System governing it, there is many more ways to form a solution to take work ethic out of schools but that's what I believe to be the solution.
Is there a class called: "work ethic"? Or, is that just a general concept that teachers stress as important in getting, holding, and being successful in employment? Are you suggesting that American schools are purposely producing workers for businesses at the detriment of the student?

Please be more specific. What classes are geared to producing workers, if that is what you mean.

[Synical]

It is true that the children in European Education Systems are channeled into a specific job area far more often than seen in the states, all i'm trying to say is that the Goal of any education system lies with the student recieving a Job which I don't believe is the correct priority for an education system to have.
An example where the system I am familiar with begins to channel you into different job areas is GCSE's here in the UK however in the states I am aware that you don't really have an equivalent of this but what i'm trying to emphasize here is the underlining goal of the education system.

As far as work ethic, no it's not a class I am aware off what I'm trying to get across is that it's instilled into the majority of subjects available in the education system, I do believe to a certain extent that the UNIVERSAL's education system not just the American Education System's main goal is to successfully prepare students for the economic world.
The education system pre-university dosen't get too specific when it comes to blatently obvious classes for employment but what i'm trying to stress is that a lot of subjects provided by the education system has an incredible amount of work ethic involved. This is most certainly the case in the school I attended and the case for many others I have spoken too including teachers.

[Dante the Marxist]

Yes, you are definitely "charming".
It is plain that I did not invoke this conflict. It is almost entirely the teacher's fault.

Did you mean: "...unbaptized lamb of Satan..."?
No, I dont.

There is no difference between arguing with a 3 year old than there is arguing with a 13 year old.
Well, 3 year olds are illiterate, and are unable to speak properly, and cannot understand anything about politics or anything that actually matters. Most of us just do not choose to understand these things.

Did you mean: "anyone who questions whether society works, is considered a hoodlum"? Your lack of writing skills results in posts that are barely decipherable, let alone "obvious".
Not having an "h" in a word like that does not create any need to decipher anything. You seem to understand everything else I am saying. And are you the same guy that keeps saying that yelling about spelling mistakes is a terrible way to argue?

What are you doing on an adult forum. Would you not be more comfortable on "facebook", or some other site that caters to children? What makes you think that you have anything to say that adults would want to hear?
Am I pointing out an obvious grammer mistake on your first sentence[look there is]? Yes, but I am not using it in my argument. I think facebook, myspace, and twitter are deseases. I only go on hotmail and political forums. What makes me think that an adult would want to hear what I have to say? They normally do, until they figure out my age. And that is because they are bigots.

[dahermit]

It is plain that I did not invoke this conflict. It is almost entirely the teacher's fault.No, you were responding like a wisea$$.


Well, 3 year olds are illiterate, and are unable to speak properly, and cannot understand anything about politics or anything that actually matters. Most of us just do not choose to understand these things. You also are illiterate, and unable to speak (write) properly, cannot understand anything about politics or anything that actually matters. You are too young to have the experience, and to have the knowledge base (which takes many years), to contribute to a political forum for adults except as an observer (not contributor except to ask questions). No thirteen year-old is.

...Most of us just do not choose to understand these things...But, here you are, on a political forum.

Not having an "h" in a word like that does not create any need to decipher anything. You seem to understand everything else I am saying. Your writing is full of errors and uses words that indicate a poverty of vocabulary, making it difficult to decipher as to intended meaning.


And are you the same guy that keeps saying that yelling about spelling mistakes is a terrible way to argue?
No junior, that was someone else.


Am I pointing out an obvious grammer mistake on [Sic, in ]your first sentence[look there is]? Yes, but I am not using it in my argument. I could not find that error to which you refer. Nevertheless, an error by itself is not indicative of lack of education or intelligence. However, continuous errors with no desire to learn and correct them is the mark of a dullard.


I think facebook, myspace, and twitter are deseases. I only go on hotmail and political forums. What makes me think that an adult would want to hear what I have to say? They normally do, until they figure out my age. And that is because they are bigots. Yes, we (adults) have had extensive exposure to ill-mannered, undisciplined, over-indulged children who cannot perceive or understand the difference between an adult and a child. Go tell mommy the man is being mean to you.

[dahermit]

It is true that the children in European Education Systems are channeled into a specific job area far more often than seen in the states, all i'm trying to say is that the Goal of any education system lies with the student recieving a Job which I don't believe is the correct priority for an education system to have.The goal should be to cover all possible outcomes. Employment for those inclined be it industrial labor or business, college prep, entrepreneurship. Industrial arts classes relate to jobs in manufacturing. Computer classes, business classes relate to jobs in business. Advanced English (communication), science, math relate to those about to enter college. Business classes et.al. relate to those wishing to eventually start a business. There are classes in the arts, opportunities for experience in the theater, that can acquaint the student with careers in the arts. Many other classes, seek to make the student prepared for the process of living.
This is the American system in general. It seems to cover all the post-high school possibilities. The classes a student takes, other than those required by the system, are the choices of the student and/or his parents. Is there something that I have missed?



An example where the system I am familiar with begins to channel you into different job areas is GCSE's here in the UK however in the states I am aware that you don't really have an equivalent of this but what i'm trying to emphasize here is the underlining goal of the education system. I had not realized that you were referring to the UK before reading your current post. What is: "GCSE's"?


As far as work ethic, no it's not a class I am aware off what I'm trying to get across is that it's instilled into the majority of subjects available in the education system, I do believe to a certain extent that the UNIVERSAL's education system not just the American Education System's main goal is to successfully prepare students for the economic world. In the most part it seems to be the goal. However, the student must have the means for making a living for his benefit. The school system would fail if it graduated people who did not have the requisite skills to be employable (read, write, math).



The education system pre-university dosen't get too specific when it comes to blatently obvious classes for employment but what i'm trying to stress is that a lot of subjects provided by the education system has an incredible amount of work ethic involved. This is most certainly the case in the school I attended and the case for many others I have spoken too including teachers. Yes, here in the U.S. it is stressed by the teachers also because potential employers state that is the most desirable characteristic looked for in a candidate for employment. There seems to be no market for persons who are not willing to work in an enthusiastic manner. Should schools convey the idea to the students that lack-luster performance is going to be acceptable to their potential employers?

[Dante the Marxist]

No, you were responding like a wisea$$.
No I wasnt! The homework didnt exist, so how could it be anywere? I tried saying I didnt have it, but he just started screaming "WERE IS IT!??". What else did you expect me to do, take out a blank peice of paper? That would be even more wisea$$

You also are illiterate, and unable to speak (write) properly, cannot understand anything about politics or anything that actually matters. You are too young to have the experience, and to have the knowledge base (which takes many years), to contribute to a political forum for adults except as an observer (not contributor except to ask questions). No thirteen year-old is.
If I am illiterate, how am I writing responses to your posts that require me to read them? Except for two mistakes, I have been writing properly the whole time. A knowledge base just means remembering what you have read or heard. If it took you this many years to have enough knowledge to post on a political forum, then there is something incredibly wrong with you. You are no better than the user "always".[/QUOTE]

But, here you are, on a political forum.
Your writing is full of errors and uses words that indicate a poverty of vocabulary, making it difficult to decipher as to intended meaning.
At least im not a pseudo-intellectual like you.
No junior, that was someone else.
Oh, sorry old mother dahermit.

I could not find that error to which you refer. Nevertheless, an error by itself is not indicative of lack of education or intelligence. However, continuous errors with no desire to learn and correct them is the mark of a dullard.There was supposed to be a question mark at the first sentence of the post of yours that I quoted.

Yes, we (adults) have had extensive exposure to ill-mannered, undisciplined, over-indulged children who cannot perceive or understand the difference between an adult and a child. Go tell mommy the man is being mean to you.
Yes, going to jail for pushing someone is undisciplined. Manners do not realy exist and are made up by people because thier mind got bored. They are a block to human progress.

[PLC1]

Yes, going to jail for pushing someone is undisciplined. Manners do not realy exist and are made up by people because thier mind got bored. They are a block to human progress.

Pushing someone is undisciplined. Going to jail for doing so is punishment for assault.

Manners are the rules of polite society, so yes, they really do exist. Of course, everyone has the choice of opting out of polite society, but that choice comes with the consequence of being treated impolitely in return. No one made up manners "because their mind got bored," nor are manners a block to human progress. They are a means by which we avoid getting frustrated to the point of wanting to push someone.

For a thirteen year old, you actually write fairly well, much better than a lot of your peers. Stay in school, pay particular attention in English class, and you will one day be able to hold your own in an adult discussion. You are well on the way to being able to do so now.

Of course, you had the good fortune of being born into a society that makes education available to everyone. Had you been born in Somalia or Sierra Leone, you could be illiterate for real. You could also be sweating in the fields or in a child labor factory.

You and I are lucky to have been born in one of the fat lands of the world. I'm very thankful for that, and hope you are too.

Now quite p**** and moaning, and get that homework done! (just kidding)

[n0spam4me]

There is a disconnect here, you see, if students saw adults that they knew personally who benefited from an education, then students would know that becoming educated has value. Part of the problem here is that all too many people in the public school system are incompetent and incapable of teaching, they are stretched to their limit just keeping order in a classroom.

From my own experience with the public school system, I very much agree with the bit about far too much PC and not enough room for dissent.

The "history" that is in the curriculum is a JOKE, they really don't teach HISTORY they dispense propaganda.

Where are the real TEACHERS? the ones that will incite independent thought?

A! I'm the character that was thrown out of Chemistry for being a FREE RADICAL!

what?

[Dante the Marxist]

Pushing someone is undisciplined. Going to jail for doing so is punishment for assault.
Sure it is, but jail? Oooh, the poor, defensive child got pushed. Oooh, it would be SO unhypocritical of us to put the evil monster who did this in a bare cell and twist his arms in a painful position and lock them there with sharp metal and then fine thier parents and send him to therapy for a few years.

What a joke!

Manners are the rules of polite society, so yes, they really do exist. Of course, everyone has the choice of opting out of polite society, but that choice comes with the consequence of being treated impolitely in return. No one made up manners "because their mind got bored," nor are manners a block to human progress. They are a means by which we avoid getting frustrated to the point of wanting to push someone.
As if pushing someone is the terrible thing you make it out to be...
Just because Oprah says something does not make it true.

For a thirteen year old, you actually write fairly well, much better than a lot of your peers. Stay in school, pay particular attention in English class, and you will one day be able to hold your own in an adult discussion. You are well on the way to being able to do so now.
Why thank you, kind sir.

Of course, you had the good fortune of being born into a society that makes education available to everyone. Had you been born in Somalia or Sierra Leone, you could be illiterate for real. You could also be sweating in the fields or in a child labor factory.
Education should be mixed with some sort of productive job, but not outright hard labor.

You and I are lucky to have been born in one of the fat lands of the world. I'm very thankful for that, and hope you are too.
If I would have to go to Africa right now, I would die instantly.

Now quite p**** and moaning, and get that homework done! (just kidding)
Yes [hmmf] sir.:mad:

[Synical]

The goal should be to cover all possible outcomes. Employment for those inclined be it industrial labor or business, college prep, entrepreneurship. Industrial arts classes relate to jobs in manufacturing. Computer classes, business classes relate to jobs in business. Advanced English (communication), science, math relate to those about to enter college. Business classes et.al. relate to those wishing to eventually start a business. There are classes in the arts, opportunities for experience in the theater, that can acquaint the student with careers in the arts. Many other classes, seek to make the student prepared for the process of living.
This is the American system in general. It seems to cover all the post-high school possibilities. The classes a student takes, other than those required by the system, are the choices of the student and/or his parents. Is there something that I have missed?



I had not realized that you were referring to the UK before reading your current post. What is: "GCSE's"?

In the most part it seems to be the goal. However, the student must have the means for making a living for his benefit. The school system would fail if it graduated people who did not have the requisite skills to be employable (read, write, math).


Yes, here in the U.S. it is stressed by the teachers also because potential employers state that is the most desirable characteristic looked for in a candidate for employment. There seems to be no market for persons who are not willing to work in an enthusiastic manner. Should schools convey the idea to the students that lack-luster performance is going to be acceptable to their potential employers?

Dahermit after reading your reply I have realised you've slightly mis-understood what I meant, when I was suggesting that the Education Systems priority shouldn't be to prepare children for the economic world I meant this in a more hypothetical way. I think I stated in an earlier post this priority along with work ethic would not be removed from schools till our Economy and possibly the Monetary System change, I have been fair in my posts to schools for most of my posts as I believe they are victims to the economy and lack of government funding. As far as the Universal Education System "Failing" I meant that it's quite literally failing to educate the majority of it's pupils regardless of work ethic involved and I believe there is several underlining issues with the Universal Education System that has lead to this, lack of funding, one teaching method and teacher to a large class and so on, the list truely goes on. USA I believe is currently #10 on a list of Countries with the best Education System, I believe the main reason they're not higher is because your government for some strange reason really dosen't fund your Education System even close to enough.

Oh, almost forgot... GCSE's is exactly the definition of narrowing down your choices to more specific areas, you pick a certain number of classes to take, usually eight or nine such as Business Studies & an appropriately named "Learning for Life and Work" was also a class available to choose.

[dahermit]

I think I stated in an earlier post this priority along with work ethic would not be removed from schools till our Economy and possibly the Monetary System change, I do not understand...did you mean to say, "... work ethic should be removed from schools till our Economy..."?
I do agree however, that the schools are trying to educate for jobs that do not exist in todays depressed economy. Also, the employers being very quick to demand "work ethic", are not as quick to do their part with a "pay ethic".



As far as the Universal Education System "Failing" I meant that it's quite literally failing to educate the majority of it's pupils regardless of work ethic involved and I believe there is several underlining issues with the Universal Education System that has lead to this, lack of funding, one teaching method and teacher to a large class and so on, the list truely goes on. Over my life time, I have seen corporal punishment be legislated out of the schools and the students become unmanageable. This is not the fault of the teacher. Teachers are not given any tools (methods), that control the student behavior and classes have become uncontrollable. If the students are not sitting with their mouths shut, listening, doing their assignments, the result is what we have today.


USA I believe is currently #10 on a list of Countries with the best Education System, I believe the main reason they're not higher is because your government for some strange reason really dosen't fund your Education System even close to enough.The U.S. has one of the worst secondary (middle school through high school) systems of the industrialized nations. However, it is because of the out of control students and their indulgent parents. The U.S.A.'s college system however, is arguably the best in the world inasmuch as students come here from all over the world to go to school.
As to funding schools, it has been ruled by the U.S. Supreme Court that the responsibility for education falls to the individual states and the states push some of the responsibility to the individual school districts. In short, any funds that come from the Federal Government are added to encourage special programs, not to be the primary source of funding for education, which results in a very wide difference in the amount of money spent on educating the students from one district to another and one state to another.

[dahermit]

There is a disconnect here, you see, if students saw adults that they knew personally who benefited from an education, then students would know that becoming educated has value. Part of the problem here is that all too many people in the public school system are incompetent and incapable of teaching, they are stretched to their limit just keeping order in a classroom. Armed with a cattle prod, you would be surprised how orderly a classroom would become. You do not have the credentials to conclude that a teacher is not adequate for the position.

"...then students would know that becoming educated has value..." It is not the teachers duty to convince the student that education has value; it is the duty of the parents. In the U.S., this is apparent in the attitudes and willingness to learn of what are referred to as "preppies". Their parents send them to school for the purpose of education, not having a good time, be entertained, be cool, be the class clown, show how stupid the teachers are, etc. And they do well, are always on the honer role, valedictorians of their class, members of the honor society, go on to college, become successful in business and industry. Jerk-offs on the other hand, complain about "bad teachers", being punished for, "just....", too many rules, not being allowed to dissent, etc., etc., etc.

From my own experience with the public school system, I very much agree with the bit about far too much PC and not enough room for dissent. Six times seven is forty-two. There is no room for dissent. The only time it is legitimate to offer a dissenting opinion is when a teacher requests dissenting opinions.

The "history" that is in the curriculum is a JOKE, they really don't teach HISTORY they dispense propaganda. Give examples please. What particular event in history, as it is being taught, is propaganda?

Where are the real TEACHERS? the ones that will incite independent thought? They are teaching in university philosophy classes. High School English, math, science, history, computers, etc., are not the proper place for your out bursts of selfish, self indulgence.


A! I'm the character that was thrown out of Chemistry for being a FREE RADICAL! No, you were thrown out for interfering with the education of students who were trying to learn. You were being disruptive.

[Synical]

I do not understand...did you mean to say, "... work ethic should be removed from schools till our Economy..."?
I do agree however, that the schools are trying to educate for jobs that do not exist in todays depressed economy. Also, the employers being very quick to demand "work ethic", are not as quick to do their part with a "pay ethic".

Over my life time, I have seen corporal punishment be legislated out of the schools and the students become unmanageable. This is not the fault of the teacher. Teachers are not given any tools (methods), that control the student behavior and classes have become uncontrollable. If the students are not sitting with their mouths shut, listening, doing their assignments, the result is what we have today.


The U.S. has one of the worst secondary (middle school through high school) systems of the industrialized nations. However, it is because of the out of control students and their indulgent parents. The U.S.A.'s college system however, is arguably the best in the world inasmuch as students come here from all over the world to go to school.
As to funding schools, it has been ruled by the U.S. Supreme Court that the responsibility for education falls to the individual states and the states push some of the responsibility to the individual school districts. In short, any funds that come from the Federal Government are added to encourage special programs, not to be the primary source of funding for education, which results in a very wide difference in the amount of money spent on educating the students from one district to another and one state to another.


I meant to say Work Ethic in an ideal world wouldn't be the priority in our Education System but work ethic being removed in our current economy would simply fail to even remotely prepare children for life outside of school.

Punishing children with such aggression simply promotes such aggression as a viable problem solver, I'd rather this not be the case. I do believe that in certain class rooms around the world a large ammount of students become unmanageable but this is down to the school to create a stricter or more efficient disciplinary system, from my own experience schools I am familar with here in the UK simply don't follow through on their disciplinary policies.
I agree to a certain extent with your stance on teachers however again I believe now enough is done to create an efficient disciplinary system in schools and teachers seem to a lot of the time not follow through on a system provided to them in most cases anyway.

The noteable difference here between a middle or high school and a College/University is that the middle and high school are given state cirriculums to strictly follow and in most countries a level of conformity and anti-individualism is pushed on the students, none of this effects the College/University however which is free to let great minds such as lecturers in some of your top Colleges to teach in the true meaning of the word opposed to passing on information provided by the government.
Of course another noteable difference is the funding, Education needs to be the priority of a Country and it's far too often the Military is that priority.

[dahermit]

Punishing children with such aggression simply promotes such aggression as a viable problem solver, I'd rather this not be the case. I do believe that in certain class rooms around the world a large ammount of students become unmanageable but this is down to the school to create a stricter or more efficient disciplinary system, from my own experience schools I am familar with here in the UK simply don't follow through on their disciplinary policies.
I agree to a certain extent with your stance on teachers however again I believe now enough is done to create an efficient disciplinary system in schools and teachers seem to a lot of the time not follow through on a system provided to them in most cases anyway.
In the U.S. teachers do not have the authority to discipline. Since the creation of the "assistant principal", the authority has move to them. The outcome of the shift can be seen when an assistant principal enters the room of a noisy class. They immediately quiet down, whereas they disregard the teacher as being powerless.

I disagree that, "...Punishing children with such aggression simply promotes such aggression as a viable problem solver..." In this country, courts will sometimes sentence troublesome teenagers to "boot camp" where they are treated very aggressively and have been shown to respond favorably by changing their disruptive behavior. If those same teenagers were subject to an aggressive environment (instead of lax indulgence), they would not become disruptive in the first place. Those who say: "There are better ways to discipline students than harsh punishments...", do not realize that those alternative ways mostly do not work whereas, being in U.S. Army Basic Training in 1962, we were kicked, harshly treated to the extreme, no one died, and only one recruit (out of 200) could not make the adjustment and was discharged. In short, it worked and worked well, no one ever was "disruptive" or did not immediately do what they were told. Compare that to the dropout rate of high schools.

I agree that there is no follow through. I was involved in a very disruptive middle school (as well as the district's high school), where in the teachers designed a ten step linear program where designated steps were given to correct student behavior. It ended in complete failure due the practice of the administration to inadvertently convert it to a circular system. The administrators never got to step nine where they would refer a student to the school board for expulsion, they just rotated the students through "time-out", which is a step five or so. It is notable that the administration seemed not to notice that the discipline system was not working as hoped...It occurred to me that for the administration's purpose, it was important to have a system to point to as to what they did to control student behavior, but it was not as important to them that it actually worked.


The noteable difference here between a middle or high school and a College/University is that the middle and high school are given state cirriculums to strictly follow and in most countries a level of conformity and anti-individualism is pushed on the students, none of this effects the College/University however which is free to let great minds such as lecturers in some of your top Colleges to teach in the true meaning of the word opposed to passing on information provided by the government.
Of course another noteable difference is the funding, Education needs to be the priority of a Country and it's far too often the Military is that priority. I disagree. The most notable difference is that in College, the students are paying for the instruction. If there was some jerk that disrupted the class, the other students would sanction them (I have seen it done) with something like: "Hey, shut-up, I'm paying for this class and I do not need your disruption."

"...middle and high school are given state cirriculums to strictly follow and in most countries a level of conformity and anti-individualism is pushed on the students..." There are requirements for classes in secondary education. So much math, science, etc. What classes would you want included that are not available? Other than not being disruptive, what conformity are you referring to? What anti-individualism is pushed(by the system, not individual teachers which are just opinions which you can disregard), on the students?

There are several classes in College that are mandatory and not of the student's choosing. Physical education, a lab science, a humanity class, were three that my degree required. I took them and kept my opinion to myself whether or not they should be included. (I was exempt from Physical Education though because of previous Army service.)

[Dante the Marxist]

Armed with a cattle prod, you would be surprised how orderly a classroom would become. You do not have the credentials to conclude that a teacher is not adequate for the position.
Are you suggesting shocking us with CATTLE PRODS!? Are you insane? The shock from a cattle prod is enough to kill a child.

"...then students would know that becoming educated has value..." It is not the teachers duty to convince the student that education has value; it is the duty of the parents. In the U.S., this is apparent in the attitudes and willingness to learn of what are referred to as "preppies". Their parents send them to school for the purpose of education, not having a good time, be entertained, be cool, be the class clown, show how stupid the teachers are, etc. And they do well, are always on the honer role, valedictorians of their class, members of the honor society, go on to college, become successful in business and industry. Jerk-offs on the other hand, complain about "bad teachers", being punished for, "just....", too many rules, not being allowed to dissent, etc., etc., etc.
"Preppies" dont actually want to learn, contrary to what teachers think. I have seen many of them mocking teachers behind thier backs. They just do well as an excuse to treat everyone else like crap. And perhaps "jerk-offs" are right.

Six times seven is forty-two. There is no room for dissent. The only time it is legitimate to offer a dissenting opinion is when a teacher requests dissenting opinions.
Im pretty sure he is not talking about math and science. What kind of world do we live in when dissenting are drowned out unless the ruling class wants to here them?

Give examples please. What particular event in history, as it is being taught, is propaganda?
The second I walked into history class, "communism is very scary" came out of the teacher's mouth. Then came the 45 minute anti-communist barrage. And the next day, the pro-capitalist barrage began.
They are teaching in university philosophy classes. High School English, math, science, history, computers, etc., are not the proper place for your out bursts of selfish, self indulgence.
Outbursts disappear when the need for them disappears.

No, you were thrown out for interfering with the education of students who were trying to learn. You were being disruptive.

These children are not learning much anyhow, and learn more when there is an outburst of political feeling.

[BreakFree]

If the schools established a sense of urgency in the children receiving education, they may realize the importance of education. Instead I think the teacher's and principals in schools concentrate on more downstream issues than taking an upstream approach to revive the education process.

[PLC1]

If the schools established a sense of urgency in the children receiving education, they may realize the importance of education. Instead I think the teacher's and principals in schools concentrate on more downstream issues than taking an upstream approach to revive the education process.

If that means that schools are having to swim hard against the current to counter the anti intellectual bent of our society, the lack of parenting, and the lack of work ethic on the part of students, then I agree.

[dahermit]

If the schools established a sense of urgency in the children receiving education, they may realize the importance of education. Instead I think the teacher's and principals in schools concentrate on more downstream issues than taking an upstream approach to revive the education process.

How does one go about establishing a sense of urgency in students. They wander into the school late, they wander the halls making no effort to get to class on time. They disrupt class and talk back to the teachers. If the teacher tries to correct them, the parents claim that, "...you never liked my kid...", or, "...you treat the rich kids better...", "...you pick on my kid for little things...", etc., ad nauseum. I was shocked to discover this spring that two of my wife's relatives, graduating from high school had made no plans as to their future. Why did the parents not stress post-high school career plans through-out the high school years to the point that the kids had formulated some plan...any plan?

That is what I did for my son (now 33). He reminded me that I had taken him on a ride when he was 9 years old, where I showed him the houses where "poor" people live (run-down part of town), and then showed him the houses where the wealthy people lived. I asked him, "Do you think that people that live in these run-down houses went to college"? Then when showing him the nice houses, I asked the same question, "Do you think that people that live in these nice houses went to college"? He got the message. I was very surprised he had remembered. In any event, I was constantly on him while in grade school and high school telling him how important it was to his future to do well and learn and eventually go to college. It was my job to instill values in him; the schools job is to provide the opportunity for education.

Nevertheless, "...concentrate on downstream issues...", is ambiguous. I am sure that you have a frame of reference, but throwing out that statement without explaining what you mean or give an example, leave us in the dark as to what you meant.

[Dante the Marxist]

Am I on dahermit's ignore list or something?

[Synical]

Most likely.

[Synical]

The only way I can see the education system becoming viable in this day and age is to simply start over, the system currently is catering to an economy that no longer exists which revolved around assembly lines and manual labor.
Even though I disagree with schools catering to any economy it can at least do it right, schools need to be up to date and on top of the economys needs.
The only problem is that the priority needs to shift from the Military in most countries to the Education System, that is not going to happen easily.

As far as discipline in classrooms, much more strict and efficient discipline systems needs to be thought out, implemented and USED by the schools and teachers whenever needed, there has been too much leanancy in the classroom. As fas as corporal punishment, you'll probably know I disagree.
The use of aggression as a problem solver is not the way forward.

To be honest, if you allow a child to have more choices in their own education discipline might not be as such a problem as it is now.
When a child has an interest for a certain subject and a teaching method, you'll most certainly notice a difference in their behaviour.

[dahermit]

To be honest, if you allow a child to have more choices in their own education discipline might not be as such a problem as it is now.
When a child has an interest for a certain subject and a teaching method, you'll most certainly notice a difference in their behaviour.That sounds good, and it(machine shop classes, et. al.) has worked for a very small number of students. However, I cannot perceive of any more choices than those that were available where I taught. Along with the usual fare, they had the opportunity to hop on a bus, go to auto shop, auto body, machine shop, color print shop, culinary class, barber/beauty school class, and several others that I cannot remember ( we had a two Skill Centers nearby and a Community College in which they could take classes. Nevertheless, many students although signing up for the classes to get way from academics, were not successful there either. I remember one dipship malcontent that disrupted constantly in our school, and was kicked out of the Skill Center for destroying an expensive piece of graphic arts equipment (even though he stated that he had a serious interest in a career in graphic arts). And another student who wanted to take metal shop, but was kicked out after not attempting to construct any projects but cut the metal leg of a chair off with a hacksaw (In middle school he had been removed from art class in handcuffs by police twice; the last time for stabbing another student in the chest with a pencil). In many cases, it is just "casting pearls before the swine". Albeit, it did as you stated...for just a few. We also had an "alternative school", where the students were fewer in number, and the classes taught at a slower pace. They also had cigarette breaks where they could go outside and smoke if they wished. Many did not respond to that either.
Which begs the question: What classes do you see as those that should be added to inspire the students to participate?

[Synical]

Which begs the question: What classes do you see as those that should be added to inspire the students to participate?

That's not a decision I can make, that falls upon the student to decide what they find interesting.
There is always going to be students with certain learning disabilitys and the inability to perform under traditional methods of teaching and these students need to be dealt with not with disciplinary methods but instead make sure there is the qualified proffesionals to assist these students so that not only are they not left behind but the students who are willing to learn are not disrupted.

[dahermit]

That's not a decision I can make, that falls upon the student to decide what they find interesting.
There is always going to be students with certain learning disabilitys and the inability to perform under traditional methods of teaching and these students need to be dealt with not with disciplinary methods but instead make sure there is the qualified proffesionals to assist these students so that not only are they not left behind but the students who are willing to learn are not disrupted.Well, that is the problem. I cannot think of anything that was not available to them. The problem with the students were I was, was that they were really not interested in anything. The only thing they wanted to make in metal shop were weapons and pot pipes.

We also had an "intermediate schools system" in our school district that provided a host of programs and special-ed teachers for the disadvantaged and those with special needs. But, most of the trouble makes were not in that category.

[Dante the Marxist]

Dahermit, if im on your ignore list, dont respond.

[PLC1]

Were I in charge of the schools, this is how I would reform them:


1. Get the feds out of education. All having a department of education does is add yet another layer of bureaucracy and make the process of educating youth even more political than it would otherwise be.

2. It's time for real school choice. Most of the "voucher" initiatives are really just a subsidy for people who choose private schools for their kids. It's not that such a subsidy isn't a good idea, just that vouchers don't really do what the proponents say that they will. Instead, let's dissolve all school boundaries. We don't dictate which store we must use to buy groceries, so why should the state dictate which school we must use? Let's allow the parents and students to decide which school to attend.

3. Along with giving the parents the choice of where to send their kids, let's give the school the choice to set standards for achievement. A panel of teachers and parents, similar to the school site councils, could do the job better than the state ever could. Since each school would set individual standards, students would have to live up to those standards, or find another school.

4. The role of the state would be to accredit schools and credential teachers and administrators. Any school that was accredited and hired credentialed teachers and administrators would then be eligible for state funds. Every school would get the same funding, based on the number of students. Schools could choose to operate on the funds given by the state, or charge the parents extra.

5. No one who lacks a minimum of 10 years of successful teaching should be given an administrative credential. Far too many administrators have no real idea what should be happening in the classroom.

6. No teacher would be credentialed without having served at least two years of internship under experienced and successful teachers. All too often, young and enthusiastic people are given a piece of paper for having attended college classes, then thrown to the wolves. More than half of the time, the wolves win and the potential teacher hightails it into an easier line of work.

7. The state would be allowed to keep at most 2% of the education dollar for the purpose of credentialing teachers and accrediting schools. The other 98%+ would go directly to individual schools, not to counties or districts as is currently the case.

Such a system would marry the concept of private and public education. Everyone would have a choice, but would have to comply with whatever standards for achievement and behavior the school site council dictated. Schools could choose to set low standards and accept everyone, or set high standards and achieve academic excellence.

At the secondary level, schools would be able to choose a vocational, academic, or general curriculum. Of course, they would have to cover certain basics in order to be accredited, just as the elementary schools would have to do.

All schools would have to teach language arts, of course, including what are currently called "critical thinking skills", such as separating fact from opinion, and using fact to support opinion. They would have to teach mathematics, history and science. The parents would be the ones to decide which school was doing the best job of teaching these things, since they would be the ones deciding which schools to patronize.

Maybe, just maybe, our citizenry would be well enough educated to survive in the 21st. century under such a system. Maybe politicians would be chosen by voters who don't simply vote the party line or base their votes on political advertising.

Could the US compete in the information age if we had such a system? What do you think?